Orale en un rato que me leí este post he aprendido lo que en mucho tiempo no pude.
Gracias al Sr. Tom Barr por acceder a este foro y mil gracias mas a quien lo invito a venir a postear.

And rightly so....people kill far more fish due to not being careful with CO2.
I've never once met/heard anyone that over dosed KNO3 or KH2PO4 and killed their fish.

Not once.

Aquarist have a hissy fit over the issue of KNO3 excess, then do not give CO2 hardly any respect. But the numbers do not lie.........more kill fish with CO2 than anything else in planted tanks.

It can be used correctly...........but many fail at it. I've never killed fish with CO2, only shrimp a few times.

This issue can be reduced by using less light, then less CO2 is required and it makes the system far more stable and less chance for algae and less stress on fish. I never add CO2 at night, there's no need.
Some add CO2 24/7 since they think that it's better to have a stable pH (It is not better. There's no evidence at all to this effect.)

CO2 is only used and needed during the day, this allows us more flexibility to add it during that 10 hour or so photoperiod. Then for 14 horas, it is degassed(typically in about 1, maybe 2 hours at most, it's back to what non CO2 tanks are).



Not really, the plants do not care.......the fish might however......
So the upper limit is the fish, same for the nutrients, but I really do not know how high the maximum level is for K+, PO4, Fe, NO3 I found shrimps started dying at 160ppm NO3 and after 3 days, I had about 50% death(LD 50), fish where entirely unaffected. That's very very high, 6x higher than what I suggest.



Si! Comprede!
Pero, many aquarist want high light and CO2/low nutrients because books or myths on the web tell them otherwise.



Excellente pregunta!
This is a general uptake graph that applies to nutrients and CO2.
This is true for agricultural plants, aquatic plants, algae etc:



This is a good graph as it shows why I use something like EI for helping aquarist, but also applies to CO2.

The top flat part of the line is where we want to be for CO2, NO3, PO4 etc.....

Here is another version:



You can see that the the "D" andf the 90% yield regions of the graphs have the largest, widest regions of nutrient concentrations.
These regions(D and 90% yield) are even larger (the lower ranges are wider) if you use less light.

The same applies to light also, and the upper bounds are only limited by fish and shrimp toxicity.

So this gives you a massive effective range using lower light.
This makes the method much easier for hobbyist

But many want low nutrients, then not pay attention to CO2, and then high light, pretty much the opposite of what the common sense would suggest based on research and plant physiology!



You have the common sense, now convince others!


Aquarist will get a lot more out of the hobby if they put all three elements together, not just focus so much on nutrients.

Nutrients are easy overall.
CO2 is the hardest one.

Con mucho gusto

Tom Barr

BTW, the 90% yield for NO3 in the water column for most aquatic plants(Gerloff et al, 1966) is about 20-30ppm, which is about what I suggest as an upper bound for non limiting nutrients with EI and the older version that was modified PMDD:

http://www.barrreport.com/estimativ...parameters.html

Steve and I raised the ppm's for a few things, started adding PO4, still used test kits, calibrated them also.

PMDD is here:

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Ferti...ars-conlin.html

And if you want to go farther back than 1966 with Gerloff's paper: you can look up Hoagland's nutrient solution which goes back to 1930's.

No one came up with any of this on "their own", but when it's not referenced of discussed at the very least, then you are claiming it's all your idea. I have a few that are my ideas, but EI is hardly my idea, I just argued for it and the trade offs.

Algae issues are also well supported, the plants define the system, not nutrients:

http://fishweb.ifas.ufl.edu/Faculty.../macrophyte.pdf

This will keep you out of trouble for awhile. Over 300 lakes with aquatic plants and sub to tropical temperatures, shallow, much like our aquariums where considered, far more than any other studies............

There's no pattern for PO4/NO3 etc........which is also what we see in our aquariums, so the claim that excess nutrients cause algae is false, both in research and in planted aquariums.

Both are testable and show that they are independent of algae.

Go figure.

Regards,
Tom Barr

That's a very intersting point of view, since we always claim that 1w/l is even not so good to see red beautifull plants, and I wonder if, the less light Tom says to use is enough to do so or to get a nice carpet of plants...

By the way, you DSM is something that I found very simple to be true, but I like to test it to make my point of view, anyway I guess it's something we'll discuse later...


Regards
Genaro Mendoza

(if something sound rude, I apollogize, it's only a translation issue)

Tom,

Soon you'll se that this is a very unique forum. You are not going to bored for sure.

Well, I desagree with you partially.

We had been working for some years about the idea of imbalance (no excess) of nutrients and the method we developed we called it "the controlled imbalance method".

The explanation is quite long, i will do my best effort but if you feel like, you can read the thread were is the complete idea here:

http://www.drpez.net/panel/showthread.php?t=154436

There a many nutrients and many diferent combinations of imbalances. For example, the lack of Po4 produces GSA, lack of Kno3 ciano. There are more complex combinations, green dust is related to an imbalance with Po4 and Ca.

We called the method controlled imbalance because the algae don't die if you reach a "balance" like the 10-1-15 for example (we disagree with this "balance"). The idea is to add every day Kno3 until you reach the GSA. Many algae die, some stop the bloom, others need eritromocine. (By the way, excel is not available in several spanish speaking countries or is too expensive, I mean, imagine if you should pay 130 dollars for an small bottle).

The fertilizing side of the method is that the dosis you use to reach the gsa is the amount of kno3 you should use per week fertilizing. The goal is to find the real consumption of the aquarium.

We use the algae as bioindicators. We take this idea from your EI but we discovered many others new bioindicators (algae, plants, fish, shrim).

The MDC works on the idea that K is an anti algae. K avoids the reproduction of the algae skin (coenobia) (footnote 6th, you'll find it at the end of the thread / article i mentioned).

In her PHD tesis about green algae, Tiffany Lewis asserts:

"que el potasio inhibe el desarrollo de un polímero —exopolysacarido— que recubre exteriormente la colonia celular —coenobia— de algas unicelulares, filamentosas y cianobacteria."

Es decir, el potasio inhibe la reproducción de la mayor parte de las algas verdes en tanto impide que se pueda reproducir la pared externa que protege a la colonia celular que constituye el alga.

This explains why the MDC just works. You can probe the protocols by your self and take your own conclusions. We had positive feedback for three years and over 52.000 reads. Even the tesis is related to green algae only, we used it with several other algae and it just works.

Lewis also asserts something very interesting:

“Parecería ser, entonces, que la dificultad de comprobar la naturaleza de las membranas celulares en las algas verdes descanza no en la presencia de compuestos de extrañas composiciones químicas, sino, en cambio, en la presencia de capas de diversas sustancias en la membrana”.

She mention differents layers from differents substances that is different from one algae to another. The identification of algae with very specific imbalances we did is sustained in this phd tesis. After that, many people probed succesfully for almost four years.

We took many of your ideas (high light, we left the 10.1.15 relationship, we left the idea of excess of nutrienst, we use the bioindicators, 50% weekly water change, Co2 at the limit). From this basics we developed a simple method of fertilization and algae control that works without algae.

You mention that you care about plant growth rate. I was in the business of growing plants. I used to cultivate them submersed because using the MDC I got better growth rate than emerged.

About the GDA, a friend had a problem with this algae. He was told to wait three week. After three months he gave up. I test the water with laboratory quality test and I discover the imbalance I mentioned about Po4 and Ca. He used the generic protocol of Kno3 I mention you for 1 week, reduced the amount of Ca and Po4. The GDA disappeared. You can see his aquarium in the pictures with the algae and the solution at the MDC.
This solution I resume for you was successfully used for years.

Please don't feel this as a personal attack, we used to debate ideas in this forum. If you take a look at the MDC, you'll see that the debate was intense but respectfully.

Best regards
Christian Rubilar

pd: Maniana posteo la traduccion al espaniol que ya son las 5 am

(Si algo es rudo pido disculpas, es solo un problema en la traduccion)

Tom,

Pronto te vas a dar cuenta que este forum es unico. Es seguro que no te vas a aburrir.


Bueno, estoy en desacuerdo contigo parcialmente.

Hemos estado trabajando por algunos anios sobre la idea de desequilibrio (no excesos) de nutrientes y desarrollamos un metodo que llamamos "Metodo de los Desequilibrios Controlados".

La explicacion es un poco larga, hare mi mejor esfuerzo pero si tenes ganas podes leer el post donde esta la idea completa aca:

http://www.drpez.net/panel/showthread.php?t=154436

Hay muchos nutrientes y muchas diferentes combinaciones de desequilibrios. Por ejemplo, la carencia de Po4 produce alga verde punto, la carencia de Kno3 ciano. Hay combinaciones mas complejas, el green dust esta relacionado con Po4 y Ca.

Llamamos al metodo "desequilibrios controlados" porque las algas no se van si encontras el "equilibrio" como 10.1.15 (estamos en desacuerdo con ese "equilibrio"). La idea es aditar todos los dias Kno3 hasta que alcancemos las algas verde punto. Muchas algas mueren, otras detienen la explosion, otras necesitan eritromicina (por cierto, el excel no esta disponible en varios paises de habla hispana o es demasiado caro, me refiero, imaginate que tuvieras que pagar 130 dolares por una botella pequenia).

El lado de fertilizacion del metodo is que la dosis que usaste para alcanzar la verde punto es la cantidad de Kno3 que deberias aditar por semana. El gool es encontrar el consumo real de tu acuario.

Usamos las algas como bioindicadores. Tomamos tu idea del IE pero descubrimos otros nuevos bioindicadores (algas, plantas, peces, camarones).

El MDC funciona sobre la idea de que el K es un anti algas. El K inhibe la reproduccion de la piel de las algas llamada coenobia.

En su tesis doctoral sobre algas verdes, Tiffany Lweis afirma:

"que el potasio inhibe el desarrollo de un polímero —exopolysacarido— que recubre exteriormente la colonia celular —coenobia— de algas unicelulares, filamentosas y cianobacteria."

Es decir, el potasio inhibe la reproducción de la mayor parte de las algas verdes en tanto impide que se pueda reproducir la pared externa que protege a la colonia celular que constituye el alga.

Esto explica porque el MDC simplemente funciona. Tu puedes probar los protocolos por ti mismo y sacar tus propias conclusiones. Hemos tenido feedback positivo por 3 anios y mas de 52.000 lecturas.
Pese a que la tesis mencionada dice que esto es asi con las algas verdes, lo hemos usado con muchas otras algas i simplemente funciona.

Lewis tambien afirma algo muy interesante:

“Parecería ser, entonces, que la dificultad de comprobar la naturaleza de las membranas celulares en las algas verdes descanza no en la presencia de compuestos de extrañas composiciones químicas, sino, en cambio, en la presencia de capas de diversas sustancias en la membrana”.

Ella menciona la existencia de diferentes capas compuestas de diferentes sustancias y esta disposicion de capas varia de una variedad de alga a otra. La identificacion de desequilibrios especificos que hemos hecho esta sostenida en esta tesis doctoral. Luego, muchas personas lo han probado exitosamente por 4 anios.

Nosotros tomamos muchas de tus ideas (alta iluminacion, abandonamos la relacion 10.1.15, abandonamos el concepto del exceso de nutrientes, usamos los bioindicadores, hacemos cambios de agiua semanales del 50%, usamos Co2 al limite). De estas bases nosotros desarrollamos un metodo simple de fertilizacion y control de algas que funciona sin algas.

Tu mencionas que te ocupas de la tasa de crecimiento de las plantas. Yo estuve en el negocio del cultivo de plantas de acuario. Acostumbraba cultivarlas sumergidas porque usando el MDC obtuve mejores tasas de crecimiento que emergidos.

Sobre la green dust, un amigo tuvo un problema con esta alga. Le dijeron que debia esperar tres semanas. Despues de 3 meses se dio por vencido. Yo testee el agua con test de laboratorio y descubri el desequilibrio que te mencione del Po4 y el Ca. El uso el protocolo generico del Kno3 que te mencione por 1 semana y redujo la cantidad de Ca y Po4 en el fertilizado. La green dust desaparecio. Podes ver su acuario en las fotos con las algas y las soluciones en el MDC.
Esta solucion que te acabo de resumur ha sido usada exitosamente por anios.

Por favor no lo tomes como un ataque personal, acostumbramos debatir ideas en este foro. Si miras el MDC, veras que el debate fue intenso pero respetuoso.

Best regards
Christian Rubilar

Aquí se va a liar una buena, .
Me gustaria que alguien tradujera los post del Sr. Barr, a ver si theki lo pudiera hacer, o alguien y que él lo ponga.
Es que el traductor del google, lo traduce pero no del todo bien.
Gracias de antemano saludos.

Muy buenas,

Efectívamente muy interesante, pero se hace a veces complejo seguirlo por el idioma al ser un vocabulario bastante específico...A ver qué se puede hacer para que todos o la mayoría podamos sacar buenas conclusiones de ello porque el tema promete... Un placer el poder contar con una eminencia así en el foro de DrPez. Gracias a Tom y al que le invitase a compartir todos sus conocimientos con nosotros

It's a pleasure having you in DrPez Tom, and I'm sure that we will learn a lot with you as we are always around plants growing versus algae.

Thanks a lot and welcome to DrPez

En absoluto Christian, todo lo contrario, se agradece enormemente tu esfuerzo traduciendo todo lo que has escrito

If you look at the older Dutch aquariums from the 1940's, 1950's, many had nice red plants. Prior to about 1998, most could only add no more than about 0.5w/liter! So all pictures before that time was with older lower light.

Rather than w/liter, I use PAR, the ADA luights are very low light in terms of compareable light in PAR.

This tank is about 1.5w/gal, and so is this tank:




Red color:




The plants are really shaded above except for the top background plants.
A reineckii are fairly low light species.

Good CO2 and stable well fed nutrients allow better use of light.





Yes, the DSM is simple and easy, I suggest aquarist wanting to have those type of rock garden styles, give this method a try.

It will make growing many species much easier for many planted aquarist.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Ahi termine la traduccion al espaniol de mi intervencion. Saludos

hea!! ahora tambien aprenderemos ingles!!

Fear not!



I can help you there to make your own DIY version at about 2$ US for 4 liters depending on chemical supply companies. Would you like that?
PM me, I think it will help many of you.

As far as the above, I think you and I are not that different about nutrients etc and algae. different ways of looking at it, but the general idea is the same thus far.

I can also help add to your bioindicators, por example: GSA can be due to poor PO4, but also, poor CO2 or both. There may be more than one cause.
Riccia pearling well with O2 1/2 the dia is a good indicator of good CO2 supply.



A good test kit and calibration takes care of that question easily, problem is, many will not test.........so I suggest water changes generally. This most aquarist understand and can do easily.
But if they are good with testing, then they can go this other route.

Consumption of the aquarium varies, you can avoid that by doing water changes and then this reduces the variation and keeps it within a range.
This is far more predictable, thus rules out unknown issues.



Yes, I use these more than the test kits actually myself, they tell you much better than ppm's.



I have plenty of examples where this is not true... independent of other parameters..........I wish it was that/this simple.

Many of us speculated on this same idea about K+ years ago.

We went wild! every comment was followed by "add more K+" for all and any advice with algae. It was funny almost.




Sounds good, but are the results supportive of the conclusion, or just correlation? I see no ppm's or molar concentrations above..........

You need hard specific data for conclusions and results.
This does us little good if the ppm's of K+ are not given over a dose response curve.

Do you have a link for her dissertation?
I did my master's on freshwater algae in Florida springs where plants grow.
Light was the main variable for my system.

We have dosed high levels of K+(50ppm ranges) for many years back in the mid 1990's till about 2002 or so when a few claimed high K+ stunted plants at 10-20ppm K+ (this was shown to be false). I still add high levels(30-50ppm).

GDA is another issue, I will try lowering the Ca and PO4 and see, but I need to know how to induce GDA first!

Everytime I got it, it went away on it's own and I had high Ca and PO4.........
So there's something else going on, but reducing Ca is rather hard unless you have an RO filter for many aquarist.

I'm not sure that is practical for many aqurists, nor the correct reason for it "going away". In order to test algae, you need to have it growing in the log active phase and you need to know why it is induced/germinates in the first place.

This is how you determine "cause", not merely what kills algae. There are many ways to do that, but planted aquarist did not start this hobby to do that, they chose this hobby to have a nice garden of plants. So that is the goal I focus on.

If I have an algae question, then I focus specifically on that.
They are two different areas and specific questions(algae growth and plant growth).

Like any pest control, if you control reproduction and germination, you control the pest before it gets started. Killing it is rarely an issue once it is established. There are many ways to do that. The Ecology and Life History are more important and telling for algae.

If you have the link to Dr Lewis' PhD, I would like to read it.
I will find someone with bad GDA and see if it works for them as far as K+.

Thanks, I look forward to the discussion, it does seem you folks are on the right track for growing plants and using the plants and algae.

Glad you could use some of the past information I provided.
That is what this is all about, como no?

Tom Barr

Take your time.

you can also do a little trick by taking the Spanish/Espanol to English, then translate it back again, then check to see if it makes sense in Spanish. This two step process makes sure what you say makes sense!

You might have to change some language and make it simpler.

Hopefully, in 2-5 years, the software will do this automatically, but it's hard to read the mind of the person writing and makes those changes

Regards,
Tom Barr

Sounds good. If you don't mind you can post this info here. Nowadays I live in Brooklyn so i can buy it at a reasonable price. Anyway, there has been years since las time I had any red algae. But many people from sudamerica will find this great!!!



Yes, I know, for this reason I wrote that i partially disagree. I think that the differences are:
1) How to deal with algae
2) what causes algae
3) How to determinate dosis of fertilizing



Well, every aquarium is unique and need different amounts of KNO3
For this reason I propose to induce GSA to know how much Kno3 the aquarium needs per week instead of using rigid rules. For example, an aquarium with a meadow of Marsilea crenata will need 2 or more ppm of PO4 to avoid GSA. This aquarium is very different from one with a meadow of glosso which may need up to 30 ppm KNO3 a week just to avoid ciano.



I know, but i meant Kno3, not potasium sulfate. I think that the goals is the proper amount. And the bioindicators tell us how much add.




Well, the MDC begings with this paragraph:

"The first aim of this preliminary work is to present a simple and effective method of control of algae and fertilizing that we call "Method of Controlled Imbalance" henceforth MDC. While it is ambitious given the two items together as long as they are complex, the truth is that they can not seriously split as are closely interrelated as will be discussed throughout this work.

However, despite the complexity of the issue to be addressed, the vocabulary will be as smooth and flat as possible so that the explanations given that the object is not to claim a science paper -for which I am not prepared- but instead set a clear basis for any hobbyists, even a novice can have an aquarium properly fertilized while easily avoiding the formation of algae"

The method we used is called "fallacy of affirming consequent" in epistemology. The example is:
"if several crow are black, then the crows are black".
Of course there are white crows but the rule works.

We can assert that is just a "common sense method" as you say.




Well, I think that is not possible. Esencially, I explain it at the MDC, there are too many variables in play. Each plant has different priority consumption (glosso has different needs than anubias than blyxa than cryptos than microsorums than hc, etc, etc, etc) and do not forget that the possible combinations are endless and constantly changing as the balance in the aquarium are dynamic.
For this reason in the MDC I use the analogy of the blind man with his walking stick. We can not know exactly what is going on but if we find the GSA then we find known terrain.
I mean, the response curve of wich plant, of wich aquarium of wich day?



unfortunately not. I have moved from Argentina and I lost the pdf I had. Anyway it is trackable:
"Lewis Hanford Tiffany, Department of Botany, The Ohio State University, a physiological study of growth and reproduction among certain green algae. The Ohio Journal of Cience, 1924, march, vol. XXIV, N. 2, p. 68 & following".

I think I got it from this website:
http://library.osu.edu/




Well, I think that the approach should be another. Tell me, if tonight there will be 5 friends invited to dinner at your place. How do you estimate how much food do you need? Do you tell your wife: sweety, would you mind to cook for a house of 900 square feet? Of course not. It makes no sense.

I think that there is a close relationship between K and No3. Is not a matter of high doses. In fact, in Chile the have salitre potasico that is 15.0.15 and it works even better than Kno3.



mmmmmm, easy, change proportions you usually use of them adding more Ca, keeping your levels of Po4 (I asume you use more than 1 ppm).
But as soon as you get it, to fix it you should not balance again, It doesn't work. Use the protocol for GDA that is at MDC. It has been used hundred of times successfully.



Well, depends. In the case of my friend I mentioned, he was adding calcium chloride. He added less in regular fertilizing after he solved the algae. He solved it with the standar Kno3 protocol.



Well, I disagree. Why are they growing? Why one and no the other? This is because proper conditions appears. The conditions that are proper for GSA are a desert for the other algae. If you keep your tank close to GSA you don't have any algae.
.



I believe that the approach should be understand algae like the other side of the same coin, If you see algae like a pest control then you lose the opportunity to learn from the feedback they give you.



There are different ways. For example, you can use a pesticide to kill cockroaches. You can also put an emphasis on cleaning up the kitchen. Both work. That the kitchen is clean does not mean that you have not eaten well. The idea of MDC is that plants are well fed but if you test the water levels are low, in this regard seek efficiency. I have added more than 30 ppm of KNO3 and the test marked only 2.5 ppm In other aquarium with a carpet of marsilea crenata I added 5 ppm of Po4 but the test shows less than 0.25 ppm.
.



Well, actually we are only a band of respectful irreverent.

Best regards

sss

Hola,

. . . . muy bonitas las fotos . . . .


Se que es un lujo tener al Sr. Barr aquí y personalmente pienso que otro lujo es tener a Cristian, pero señores . . . esto es inhumano!

Saludos.

si,si ,las fotos preciosas.... es de lo único que me entero y eso que le doy al traductor por mí que no quede,una ayudita por favor.

Suena bien. Si no te molesta podes postear esa info aca. Hoy en dia estoy viviendo en Brooklyn por lo que puedo comprarlo a un precio razonable. De todas maneras hace anios que no tengo algas rojas. Pero mucha gente de sudamerica lo encontrara genial!!!




Si, lo se, por esta razon escribi que estaba parcialmente en desacuerdo. Pienso que las diferencias son:

1) Como lidiar con las algas
2) Que causa las algas
3) Como determinar las dosis de fertilizado



Bueno, cada acuario es unico y necesita diferentes cantidades de Kno3. Por esa razon es que porpongo inducir la alga verde punto para saber cuanto Kno3 el acuario necesita por semana en lugar de usar reglas rigidas.
Por ejemplo, un acuario con una alfombra de marsilea crenata necesitada de 2 ppm o mas de Po4 para evitar tener alga verde punto. Este acuario es muy diferente de uno con una pradera de glosso wigh que puede necesitar hasta 30 ppm de Kno3 semanal solo para evitar la ciano.



Lo se, pero me refiero a Kno3, no a sulfato de potasio, Pienso que el gol es un nivel adecuado. Y los bioindicadores nos dice cuanto aditar.




Bueno, el MDC comienza con este parrafo:

"El objeto de este primer trabajo preliminar consiste en exponer un sistema sencillo y eficaz de control de algas y fertilizado que llamaré “Método de los Desequilibrios Controlados” —en adelante MDC—. Si bien es ambicioso tratar estos dos temas conjuntamente dado que son tan extensos como complejos, lo cierto es que no pueden escindirse seriamente ya que tienen una estrecha interrelación como se expondrá a lo largo de este trabajo.

Sin embargo, pese a la complejidad del tema a tratar, el vocabulario va a ser tan liso y llano como sea posible lo mismo que las explicaciones dado que el objeto no es pretender hacer un paper de divulgación científica —para el cual no estoy preparado— sino, en cambio, fijar bases claras para que cualquier hobbista, aun novato, pueda tener un acuario correctamente fertilizado mientras evita fácilmente la formación de algas."

El metodo que usamos se llama falacia de afirmacion consecuente en epistemologia. El ejemplo es: "si muchos cuervos son negros, entonces los cuervos son negros. Por supuesto que existen cuervos albinos pero la regla igual funciona.
Podemos afirmar que se trata solo de un "metodo del sentido comun" como vos decis.



Bueno, pienso que eso no es posible. Esencialmente, explico en el MDC que hay demasiadas variables en juego. Cada planta tiene prioridades de consumo especificas (glosso es diferente de las anubias de la blyxa de las cryptos de los microsorums del HC, etc, etc, etc) y no te olvides que las posibles combinaciones son interminables y en constante cambio ya que el equilibrio en un acuario es dinamico.

Por esta razon es que en el MDC uso la analogia del ciego y su baston. No podemos saber exactamente que esta pasando pero si encontramos la verde punto entonces estamos en terreno conocido.
Me refiero, la cuerva de respuesta de que planta, de que acuario de que dia?



Desafortunadamente no. Me mude de Argentina y perdi el PDF que tenia. De todas formas es rastreable:
"Lewis Hanford Tiffany, Department of Botany, The Ohio State University, a physiological study of growth and reproduction among certain green algae. The Ohio Journal of Cience, 1924, march, vol. XXIV, N. 2, p. 68 & following".

Pienso que lo obtuve en este sitio:
http://library.osu.edu/




Bueno, yo pienso que el approach debe ser otro. Decime, si esta noche vienen a cenar 5 amigos a tu casa, Como estimas cuanta comida vas a necesitar? Le decis a tu esposa, querida, no te molestaria cocinar para 900 pies cuadrados? Por supuesto que no, no tiene sentido.

Yo pienso que hay una relacion estrecha entre K y No3. No es un tema de dosis altas. De hecho en Chile tienen salitre potasico que es 15.0.15 y funciona aun mejor que el Kno3.



mmmmmm, facil, cambia las proporciones que usualmente usas aditando mas Ca, manteniendo altos tus niveles de Po4 (asumo que usas mas de 1 ppm).
Pero tan pronto como la obtengas, para solucionarla no deberias equilibrarlo de nuevo, eso no funciona. Usa el protocolo para la GDA que esta en el MDC. Ha sido usado cientos de veces de manera exitosa.



Bueno, depende, en el caso de mi amigo que te comente, el estaba aditando cloruro de calcio. El adito menos en el fertilizado regular luego de que soluciono el problema de la GDA. El lo soluciono con el protocolo generico del Kno3.



Bueno, estoy en desacuerdo. Porque estan creciendo? Por que una y no otra? Esto es porque condiciones adecuadas aparecen. Las condiciones que son adecuadas para las algas verde punto son un desierto para otras algas. Si mantenes tu tanque cercano a las algas verde punto no tendras ningun alga.



Yo pienso que el approach debe ser entender a las algas como la otra cara de la misma moneda, si ves a las algas como control de plagas, entonces perdes la oportunidad de aprender del feedback que te dan.



Bueno, estoy en desacuerdo. Porque estan creciendo? Por que una y no otra? Esto es porque condiciones adecuadas aparecen. Las condiciones que son adecuadas para las algas verde punto son un desierto para otras algas. Si mantenes tu tanque cercano a las algas verde punto no tendras ningun alga.



Yo pienso que el approach debe ser entender a las algas como la otra cara de la misma moneda, si ves a las algas como control de plagas, entonces perdes la oportunidad de aprender del feedback que te dan.



Hay formas diferentes. Por ejemplo, podes usar pesticida para matar cucarachas. Tambien podes poner enfasis en la limpieza de la cocina. Ambos metodos funcionan. Que la cocina este limpia no significa que no hayas comido bien. La idea del MDC es que las plantas esten bien alimentadas pero que si medis el agua los valores de nutrientes son bajos.

The idea of MDC is that plants are well fed but if you test the water levels are low, in this regard seek efficiency. I have added more than 30 ppm of KNO3 and the test marked only 2.5 ppm In other aquarium with a carpet of marsilea crenata I added 5 ppm of Po4 but the test shows less than 0.25 ppm.
.



Well, actually we are only a band of respectful irreverent.

Best regards

.

Gracias Cristian.

Saludos.

Bueno, Tom encontro la tesis doctoral de la que hablabamos:
https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream.../V24N02_065.pdf
Saludos

Bien, es un mundo esto para traducirlo, si me costo tiempo leerlo, no veo como traducirlo...,jejeje a menos que se habra un post alterno y se vayan vertiendo ahi los post poco a poco.

no habia visto al che escribir tanto despues del MDC, inclusive el link me lo aprendi de memoria de tanto verlo

por cierto, Tom vino por cuenta propia, yo solo le dije que buen foro era este, pero espero sepa que Christian es Licenciado y tiene facilidad de palabra escrita.

Escrito en 1924!

This paper would not even get accepted as a PhD dissertation today.
There's no figures, there's no dose response curves, not one single graph submitted, the algae are not grown in systems with aquatic plants, and with CO2 enrichment, they cannot even measure light back then..........
They are looking at what the algae parts are made of, to the best of their abilities back in the 1920's.

This paper does not support the hypothesis.
It's descriptive, which was what most biologist where back then.
Those specific species of algae are the issue and what germinates them in our system, not in the lab cultures....

I saw you suggested GSA and a PO4/Ca relationship.........is this Green dust algae or green spot algae?

Green spot algae is very easy to get rid of.
GDA is more tricky for many.

If you have low CO2, limiting PO4 dramatically affect CO2 demand in plants, so this change reduces the demand for CO2 greatly.

Adding PO4 to say 2ppm increases CO2 demand. If the PO4 is non limiting, then the CO2 also must be adjusted so that it is also non limiting. Low PO4 and or CO2 will induce GSA, or a combo of both.
We have long had little issues with GSA since adding more PO4 and keeping the CO2 in good shape. I can also induce it by reducing the CO2 and limiting PO4.

It is an indicator of a good healthy fish only aquarium(no plants).
I might clean the glass once every few months.

As far as GDA, the first case I saw used hardly any PO4 and the SF Tap water is very soft............so there was very little Ca and PO4. We increased the CO2 and added 2 ppm PO4. It went away. We have a wide range of tap water in the SF bay area where we did a lot of comparison's and tested extensively.

This was good for comparing how different tap water affected plants.
I think GDA, more specifically, the zoospores of Ankistrodesmus, are much more elusive at this time as to what induces a bloom.

If you can induce it in an otherwise healthy planted tank by say, adding PO4/Ca, then you have a cause. If you stop the cause, you stop the algae.
But you have to be able and willing to induce algae on purpose.
I see different things to get rid of algae, but not to grow it.

This way aquarist learn far more about algae, and prevent it from coming about in the first place vs merely trying kill it.

That's the difference between correlation and cause.
Many assume correlation supports their conclusions, not really, you need to confirm that the results support the hypothesis.

Paul Sears said this same thing about algae and limiting PO4.
See PMDD:
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Ferti...ars-conlin.html
Many people had good success with that method also and it reduced algae for folks.

However, the hypothesis was very wrong.

I decided to test this hypothesis and so did some other folks who saw the results.

Rather than relying on correlation alone, I put the hypothesis to the test.....if the hypothesis is true, adding non limiting PO4 would induce algae in an otherwise well planted healthy tank. If not, then I would reject that hypothesis and accept an alternative hypothesis.

I added 1 and then 2ppm of PO4.
No algae, only better pearling and higher O2 levels.

Others followed suit and have the same results.
So this hypothesis cannot be correct. You still had decent results using that method ............but not for the reasons that Paul and Kevin claimed.

So what was limiting algae or where they limited at all?
Well, low PO4 reduces CO2 demand in plants, and if the CO2 is not accounted for, then we have a problem and the test is not independent.

So poor CO2, not high PO4 was causing the algae issues and folks found success when they limited PO4 due to a CO2 issue, this explains both observations..........

...Why some people had high PO4 and no algae, and others had to limit PO4 to prevent algae.

It had no direct relationship with PO4, rather, an indirect relationship with CO2, which we all know can really cause a bad algae issue if it's not added correctly.

So while it worked, it did not work for the reasons speculated.
Nor did it explain the other observations with high PO4 and no algae:



This tank above has a GH of about (450ppm), KH of 12 and 3ppm of PO4.
No issues with any algae.





Regards,
Tom Barr